(This interview originally appeared in 2008– Hamzawi’s work is now appearing in Visura Magazine, link to follow the interview. )
“Iraqis Today” is the work of Amro Hamzawi a photographer currently living in Los Angeles. Mr. Hamzawi traveled around the Middle East, photographing and interviewing refugees from Iraq, and has created a remarkable body of work that is a stark contrast to much of the current reporting in the West. Over the past few days I have talked with Hamro about his life and work in the Middle East.
What is your background and how did you get interested in photography?
Born in Lebanon of Syrian parents, I spent a large part of my early adult life in France before moving to the United States to study filmmaking. I’m 34 and I can look back and so far I have lived a third of my life in the Arab world, a third in Europe and a third in the United States.
How I initially got interested in photography is kind of an interesting anecdote actually… My father, who was a business man in construction (nothing to do with photography), passed away when I was quite young. I was 10 actually. So, like many people who experience the loss of someone they love, when that happened I decided to keep a couple of items in remembrance of him. I’m not sure why, but I grabbed two items. One was a pair of his sunglasses…. the other an old Minolta camera, along with its prime lenses.
Is there any particular photographer whose work you admire or wish to emulate?
Certainly people like James Nachtwey, Marcus Bleasdale or Stanley Greene are great inspirations to many photographers I think.
Are you familiar with any Arabic photographers?
I assume you’re asking me whether I’m familiar with any Arab professional photographers (my father was a businessman, not a photographer!). I know of a few, but not many. And I would probably differentiate between does living and working in the Middle East, and those like me who have become citizens of a Western country (France in my case). I only make the distinction because the ones living in the Middle East often work in much more difficult conditions and deserve praise for their courage. There’s the case, for example, of Iraqi photographer Bilal Hussein who was jailed earlier this year and accused of providing support to insurgents.
Can you compare your experience living in the Middle Eastern and here in America?
I understand and appreciate each of the cultures for what they have to offer. There are a lot of things I admire about the United States and its people. The idea that a common belief in democratic ideals is what brings people together– not the belonging to an ethnic or religious group — is as modern and progressive a philosophy as there can be. From this perspective, it’s much easier to assimilate in the United States than in any European country.
Having said that, my experience as a man of Arab roots living in post 9/11 America is quite complex and I’m afraid it would require a much longer conversation to share my impressions and experiences… I would just say that my name attracts more attention today than it did 8 years ago.
Had you done other other work in the Middle East before your “Iraqis Today” project?
I did a series in Southern Lebanon last year entitled “Bint Jbeil, Martyr Town” which got a certain amount of attention… Like most Arabs and Muslims, I have an interest in the Middle East in general, not just Iraq. Iraq happens to be more in the news right now because of the cost of the occupation and the U.S presidential campaign… but let’s not forget the plight of the Palestinians for example. The Palestinians have been living in terrible conditions for a number of years and sadly the media, particularly in the U.S, seems to find it acceptable that an entire indigenous population lives under occupation, deprived of its basic human rights.
Tell me a bit about the Iraqis project. How did you conceive of it?
Like many people, I’ve been following the news from Iraq for a number of years. At some point, I guess I just grew so frustrated by “the official coverage” — and the apparent total inability of the major papers and networks to ask the hard questions — that I decided to travel to the Middle East and start my own project. The main idea was to expose exactly what the mainstream media doesn’t want to show and talk about… the brutality of war and the terrible suffering of civilians.
Most of the work was actually done in the neighboring countries, not in Iraq itself. There are over 2 million Iraqi refugees outside of the country. These are the people I decided to approach… Iraq itself is way too unsafe right now to conduct that type of project over there. The country’s completely destroyed and there is no legitimate state to defend people’s basic rights, which is why the various militias have taken over.
It is very sad, of course, to see young U.S soldiers dying and being injured, but to a certain extent that story is already being reported in the press. It seems to me that the forgotten ones from the Iraq war are the Iraqis themselves.
Why is it too dangerous to do this kind of project in Iraq?
Well, first and foremost, it’s too dangerous for the subjects I was photographing and interviewing. Most of them left Iraq because of direct threats to their lives. So, logistically speaking it’s much easier to find people and get them to talk outside rather than inside. And with over 2 million Iraqis having fled their homeland, sadly there is no shortage of cases.
Secondly, you must realize that the country is in a situation that resembles anarchy today. People don’t know who they’re dealing with and who they can trust. Do you know how much a human life is worth in Iraq today? People kill other for 200$ a head.
How did you find people to interview and was it difficult for them to open up to you?
The hardest thing isn’t to find people — sadly there seems to be an endless number of sad stories emerging from Iraq — but to convince them to agree to be interviewed and photographed. Most people are suspicious and reluctant. Given the awful things they’ve been through, it’s hard not to understand them.
Were your subjects aware that there comments would be read by a Western audience and what does this mean?
Yes, they were. I, of course, explained to them very clearly what I intended to do, which is to relay their stories to Western audiences in Europe and the United States, so that the world can see the horror of war for what it really is. Some of them really wanted their stories to be heard, others were so disillusioned that they had very little expectations and were only interested in the immediate connection, meaning a chat and a cup of tea with another human being…
How can you be sure that the stories were not fictional? For example, is there a way to confirm that the man you interviewed was in fact the person in the famous Abu Ghraib image?
All of the people I photographed, I also interviewed at length. I think thorough interviewing is probably the best way to separate the real stories from the fictional ones. A lot of them also had written documents that validated, if not their entire stories, at least a large part of it.
The man you mention, for example, showed me documents that proved he had indeed been incarcerated at Abu Ghraib at the dates he talked about. I don’t think there’s a way to prove he is indeed the man from the infamous image, which is why I’ve been cautious in my wording.
Many here are fixated on the Sunni/Shia differentiation… what is your take on this? Were the people who you photographed from different religious groups? Do you think Americans tend to overemphasize these differences?
I interviewed and photographed Iraqis from all across the board. Sunnis, Shias, Christians, and so on. There’s a countless number of small sects in the Middle East; some of them even predate christianity… Even though they all acknowledged the existence of a certain amount of sectarianism under Saddam’s regime, the Iraqis I spoke with also agreed that it had no common measure with what is happening today. As a matter of fact, a lot of them felt that the Sunni/Shia divide was being cynically fueled by the occupiers in order to implement a “divide and conquer” strategy.
What do you think of the coverage, both photographic and written of the Iraq War by the US Press?
To a large extent, the press has failed to report the real issues and ask the hard questions. There seems to be an official line dictated by the administration and I don’t hear many voices questioning that official line. Lately, it has all been about the “success of the surge” and what it means. If you look at the news, you’ll see that we are being fed that line over and over, as a backdrop to the presidential election… but how can anybody with moral honesty talk about success when an entire country has been destroyed and we’re not even close to finding a political solution? To me, that just sounds like more brainwashing and propaganda.
Do you think that publications in the US and the press in general has done enough to provide Iraqis and Muslims in general, enough of a voice?
There are obviously differences depending on which publications you’re talking about, but overall I think there’s still a lot to be done. Not just in the press, but in the media in general. Evidently, there are still huge misunderstandings in the West about Arabs and Muslims. The problem in the U.S starts with the leadership. Politicians have deliberately created a “US versus THEM” mentality” to advance their own agendas… I think it’s up to Arabs living in the West, such as myself, not to forget their roots and make sure their people are depicted in a way that does justice to their history and culture, and the realities on the ground.
Have you approached any Western magazines with your work? What were the results?
I have approached a number of them, both in the U.S and in Europe, with little luck so far. But I’m hopeful that’s a just a matter of time before someone picks up on the importance of these stories. I understand that they may be seen as politically sensitive, as anything related to the Middle East, but I’m trying to appeal to people’s moral consciousness and engage them into a humanitarian debate, not a political one.
It seems odd that we are fighting to provide Iraqis with democracy, yet we seem to be unable or unwilling to hear their voices. How do you think we can get more reporting from an Arab perspective into our publications?
Whether “we are fighting to provide them with democracy” or not is open to debate. A lot of terrible crimes have been committed by powerful empires throughout history in the name of civilization, freedom and democracy… so I think it’s important to be cautious when using such expressions. Colonialists have always used “freedom and democracy”, as an excuse to exploit indigenous populations.
But to answer your question more specifically, I believe that change becomes possible when people start asking themselves real questions, when they start to challenge themselves and challenge their leaders, rather than silently accept the status quo. Photojournalism — and journalism in general — can help raise these questions.
What do you think of the photography that comes out of the embeds?
Some stuff is more interesting than other, of course, buts its limitations are obvious.
What is your assessment of Iraq today? Is it even possible to simply summarize the situation?
I met with a wide range of Iraqis, people from different religious groups, with different views and opinions… the one thing they all agreed on is that the security situation in Iraq is a disaster today. Basically, as long as the country is under foreign occupation, it will remain nearly impossible for the Iraqi government to find the political legitimacy it needs in order to be able to govern. At the same time, there is concern that a reckless withdrawal will generate a dangerous vacuum effect…
I think that there needs to be a wider regional solution that goes beyond Iraq alone and involves countries like Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia directly. The long-due creation of a Palestinian state is definitely part of the solution. It will have a deeply positive impact on the psyche of the Arab street… but there needs to be a U.S administration with the courage to address the real issues.
Although Iranians are seen in the media as America’s enemy, it seems as though in many ways the countries have mutual interests, especially in Iraq. How do Iraqis view Iranians, and what role do you think Iran will have in the eventual outcome, if there ever is one, in Iraq?
This is a crucial question; one that would require a much more complex analysis than I am able to provide here. It is basically a question of which is stronger, the national identity or the religious identity… Is a Shiite Iraqi an Iraqi first or a Shiite first? And what about Sunnis?
Iraqis would probably give you a different answer depending on what their background is. To simplify things, I would say that — because of historical, religious, economical and social reasons — the Shiite majority in Iraq is overall more approving of closer ties with Iran than the Sunni minority, which continues to view the Iranian regime with great suspicion. You have to remember that the two countries fought a brutal war for over 8 years…
No matter what perspective you choose, there’s no doubt that Iran has an important part to play in helping to stabilize Iraq, as do all the other neighboring countries. Again, I think that this is a regional crisis, not just an Iraqi crisis. Which is why I urge the West to help create a Palestinian state today rather than tomorrow.
What role do you think photography can play in bringing people together?
What I’ve always liked about photography is that it’s very immediate and allows to raise complex questions rather than give simple answers. I’ve always thought that raising the right questions was the best way to begin finding solutions…like I said before, photography has a part to play in that it can help expose realities that the public may not necessarily be aware of.
Thanks, Amro! I look foward to seeing more of your work in the future.
Check out Hamzawi’s work Visura Magazine